Submission Sexism And Marginalization
Lets have a conversation and learn from each other
One recent comment came from Susan Hall who had this to say
i did a small qualitative study of evangelical women for my doctoral dissertation in 2007 and found that indeed, they say these very positive things…while at the very same time they tell stories of sexism and marginalization which they explain away and justify. they dismissed and invalidated the meaning of any experiences that didn’t fit the “right” picture of the church. they would literally say that even though they couldn’t speak in front of the church, they had complete freedom because their men were representing them and speaking for them.
p said
am July 10 2010 @ 7:58 am
The survey results could be helped a lot by including some “control” information. For instance, the 61% of women who say “all leadership roles are open to them in their church” should also have been asked if their church has (or is allowed to have) women pastors. They have been asked if they are allowed to teach adult sunday school (without male coteachers), etc. Knowing these statistics would help to put the responses in perspective, and help verify (if true) many people’s suspicion that these women are deluding themselves.
Even if these questions weren’t asked, they could still be researched independently if you recorded the respondents’ home churches. Make some calls to these churches and check the ladies’ stories-
Christy said
am July 12 2010 @ 6:20 pm
Jim,
If I might counter your statistics with some statistics of my own, according to the 2007 Yearbook of American and Canadian churches, published by the National Council of Churches, USA:
There are roughly 149 million total members reported within the largest 25 Christian communions/denominations. (This includes Catholic, Orthodox, trad. African-American denominations, Mormons, and Jehovah’s Witnesses.)
Of those, 110 million people (or 74%) belong to one of the 12 denominations that do NOT ordain women.
26 million belong to the mainline denominations that do ordain women – which doesn’t mean that there are no gender issues, just that women are not officially barred from being clergy.
Non-denominational churches complicate things. However, almost all of these non-denominational churches are evangelical and skew conservative. For every emerging/missional/whatever group that values women, you have an Acts 4:29 church plant that doesn’t. Churches such as Calvary Chapel crowd do not ordain women, while Willow Creek does (although women are practically never senior pastors.)
Based on my experience and knowledge of the evangelical world, it seems unlikely that non-denominational evangelical churches would be more likely to ordain women than the churches in the top 25 denominations, so, by my best guess, roughly 75 – 80% of church members in the U.S. belong to a church that does not ordain women.
Deity-approved gender discrimination is the majority official position in Christian institutions and congregations in the U.S. That doesn’t tell us anything about how women FEEL about the situation, but it is verifiably and factually true that most women in the church in the U.S. (where I am assuming you are focusing your research) are outright barred from at least some positions solely on the basis of gender.
If you are planning to write a book about women in the American church, I would hope that whatever you write would be placed in that context.
jim Henderson said
am July 12 2010 @ 6:30 pm
Christy
I really value this information
I may be able to use them
Thanks for the heads up
Peter Walker - EmergingChristian.com said
am July 22 2010 @ 1:50 am
I’m a male, and an a$$h*le, and I want to learn how to give up power – to share it – to abdicate it – to surrender it when possible. But what I find difficult, frustrating, and incredibly complicated as a male, is when Evangelical women counter my own feeble attempts at “enlightened” feminist deconstruction by saying they ARE empowered and they ARE respected and valued… that they AREN’T victims of marginalization and systemic misogyny.
Really?
I mean, part of my 12-step ex-chauvinist program is learning how NOT to speak for women. So I don’t want to sound like I’m assuming I know/understand something that is foreign to my gender and personal experience. When you tell me you’re not marginalized, I WANT TO BELIEVE YOU… But g*d*mn. I grew up as the guy on the other side: the sexist/misogynist/chauvinist/Evangelical party-liner. I know what’s said behind your back, sister. I said it. I know what’s been spoon-fed to you since you were 5 years old…
It’s disrespectful to say my sister is brainwashed, but it’s not spin to say conservative evangelicalism is in the measured, steady, long-term business of programmatic, gender-specific brainwashing.
It happened in Jim Crow South. It happens anywhere marginalized folks are taught to appreciate “good enough.”
It’s oppression.
jim Henderson said
am July 22 2010 @ 11:18 am
Peter
could you be a little more specific
Christy said
am July 22 2010 @ 7:23 pm
“it’s not spin to say conservative evangelicalism is in the measured, steady, long-term business of programmatic, gender-specific brainwashing.”
For that comment, Peter, I would gladly buy you a beer.
Peter Walker - EmergingChristian.com said
am July 22 2010 @ 10:42 pm
Thanks Christy! Back at’cha!
Jim, in the Evangelical churches I attended growing up, traditional gender roles were portrayed, taught and even encouraged from elementary age, up. Girls do one activity, boys do another. Pointing to the actions of women in Bible stories as fodder for what “godly” women do. In youth group, boys and girls take on different roles: at events, girls prepare and serve food and do cleaning. Boys do “setup” of sound systems, chairs, electronics.
Girls are complimented for having “humility” and “a servant’s heart” and boys are encouraged to be leaders.
In an issue all its own, male sexuality is an almost-uncontrollable force that must not be tempted. Women (no reference to their own desires) must hide their bodies, “avoid tempting the boys,” and in the name of modesty, take responsibility for the eyes and libidos of their male counterparts.
I never remember a pastor talking to the boys and young men about self control and respect for women. It was always a warning not to be “tempted by women.” I do remember hearing middle-aged female youth volunteers or pastors’ wives (we never had women pastors) warn the girls not to tempt the boys, not to dress inappropriately. “Those are your brothers, and you need to protect their eyes.”
Islam has a saying about women having “Nine parts of Desire.” When Allah created women and men, he gave nine parts of desire to the woman, and one part to the men. So women must be covered and separated, because their sexuality is dangerous.
This is effectively the same thing I witnessed in 26 years in the Evangelical church (I’ve since moved to Mainlines, which carry their own issues).
As far as push back from women goes, I have plenty of female classmates, coworkers and acquaintances who not only don’t feel they have ever been marginalized or discriminated against as a woman, but they don’t believe sexism is even a real issue in America today. It’s “an excuse” to be angry; to whine; to make a scene or be disrespectful; to be combative.
I don’t have the right to tell anyone what their personal experience is, but in one situation I was able to pull up U.S. wage statistics between males and females. My [young] female conversation counterpart was stunned: it had never occurred to her that there might be something quantifiably true about gender discrimination (rape statistics and domestic abuse statistics apparently notwithstanding…).
Peter Walker - EmergingChristian.com said
am July 22 2010 @ 11:06 pm
Another story (and I’m telling someone else’s now)…
A close female friend of mine was at an intimate (in-house) conference with a prominent liberation theologian. There were only a few women present, but as they were starting, this man (theologian) leaned over to her and another young woman and asked if they could go get some coffee started. In the kitchen. They were too shocked (and perhaps celebrity-struck) to argue. When they returned from the kitchen, group introductions were just getting finished, and they weren’t given an opportunity to jump in.
That was a group of “enlightened” liberals. So it’s not ONLY Evangelicals who pull this sh*t. Evangelicals are just less savvy about hiding it. And they tend to be a lot more consistent with it, as I mentioned earlier.
Jim Henderson said
am July 23 2010 @ 6:00 pm
Peter
can i use any of this in my book if I keep it anonymous
Peter Walker - EmergingChristian.com said
am July 24 2010 @ 1:06 am
Keep the 2nd story (liberation theologian) anonymous, you don’t have to keep my stuff anonymous (I’m a narcissist, so I’ll take the shoutout if it’s offered).
No, but either way, use it if you think it’ll help.
Love you man,
Peter
Peter Walker - EmergingChristian.com said
am July 24 2010 @ 1:09 am
On the other hand, it’s already on the blogosphere, so if dots are connected by the right folks, I’m pretty f**cked. No, but it’s cool
Peter Walker - EmergingChristian.com said
am July 24 2010 @ 1:23 am
No, but seriously, keep that second part anonymous.
Dana said
am July 24 2010 @ 10:22 am
Stories? You want stories? My husband is an elder who mercifully doesn’t tell me everything and is counting down the time until he can get out of there.
1. At an elder’s meeting where church structure and leadership were being discussed, the lead pastor talked about a couple of positions to be filled by women and added with a laugh, “…well, you have to throw them a bone every once in a while.”
2. After talking to the women who were heading up the children’s ministry, the lead pastor said the my husband, “You know, I think I’m beginning to figure out how to handle them.”
Acts 29 church.
Peter Walker - EmergingChristian.com said
am July 24 2010 @ 4:27 pm
Acts 29. Always classy. Thanks Dana,
Peter
Christy said
am July 24 2010 @ 7:33 pm
Here are some of my greatest hits:
1. I was mentoring a teenage girl at the church I used to attend, and she wanted to be a youth pastor. I encouraged her in this, but both youth pastors told her she couldn’t be one because she was a girl. She stopped going to church soon after.
2. I have a very close friend who was an elder at that church, and when there was a very messy situation involving the senior pastor, they called the denomination for legal advice. Even though she was the point person for the situation, she couldn’t tell the denomination she was an elder, because they would have been horrified.
3. What is it with the coffee? I used to work at a Christian college, and my program shared space with an M.Div program for pastors. A few of them asked me to get them coffee on more than one occasion. I would smile nicely, and tell them to help themselves as I pointed in the direction of the kitchen. And forget about anyone but the two women who worked there making more when it ran out – even though it takes about a minute and a half to get a new pot going. (That’s actually pretty minor – I just don’t understand why so many men feel incapable of making coffee. It’s just not that hard.)
But it goes much deeper than isolated incidents. My favorite line I’ve ever heard that sums up the situation was a woman who said, “We weren’t raised to be human beings. We were raised to be customer service agents.”
Peter Walker - EmergingChristian.com said
am July 24 2010 @ 11:14 pm
Christy,
I was raised to perpetuate these sad gender paradigms. I’m so sorry for what you have witnessed and experienced.
Christy said
am July 26 2010 @ 8:52 pm
Jim –
Given that I haven’t been to church in more than 6 years, I don’t know why discussion of your Barna survey and book have gotten under my skin so much. True – drunk grad students could have come up with a better survey. (which isn’t your fault – surveys are what Barna DOES, and there is no excuse for their shoddy framing of the questions – except to further their own conservative evangelical agenda.) I don’t know you, you don’t know me, and honestly – I probably won’t read your book, since I stopped reading evangelical books a number of years ago.
Maybe it’s the idea that whether or not discrimination against women in the church exists is somehow an open question. At least the Pope and Mark Driscoll and John Piper and the Southern Baptists are up front about it, and just say – yep, but it’s God’s idea, so shut up already, you evil feminist. (Insert reference to NOW,Planned Parenthood, and/or Hillary Clinton. It’s always Hillary Clinton. Just once, I’d love to be compared to Andrea Dworkin or bell hooks just as a change of pace.) So, I know where I stand with them – at least they are admitting reality, even if they do try to justify it.
But to conduct a survey to see if women have equal status in the evangelical church – that makes me want to scream, “are you kidding me?!!!!” – especially when it’s coming from a guy who has apparently spent a couple of years working on a book about women in the (presumably evangelical) church. It’s the kind of thing that makes Mary Daly roll over in her grave.
I guess it just gives me ‘gellie flashbacks. Note to self: Don’t read ‘gellie websites – it’s bad for your soul.
Peter –
If you’re ever in the L.A. area – drinks are on me.
chaidrinkingfool said
am September 3 2010 @ 4:44 pm
Because of the closed system of “logic” these churches operate under, SO many women support the sexism of the church. They’ve been taught it’s God’s will, which makes it not sexist.
They believe that “equal in being, different in role” is true equality. Even though the “role” here is constituted by a human’s entire existence on this earth (and according to some complementarians, in the afterlife as well).
Words don’t have any meaning anymore. And regular logic does not apply.
One must get very specific when asking questions about women in the church. There is at least one denomination, for example, in which a friend was told that women were encouraged in leadership and could serve in any way they were called–youth pastor, education minister, music minister… Further questioning revealed that no woman would be called to *lead* a church. Such a desire would be sinful!
And just because a church believes in the ordination of women does not mean that they do not believe in the unilateral submission of women in marriage. There’s a wide array of beliefs…