I just saw your comment where you mention asking Brian the question at Deep Shift. I guess I didn’t get to meet you there. I blogged about that too.

It just came out and can be found here:http://www.anevangelicalmanifesto.com/docs/Evangelical_Manifesto.pdf

Jim, I am also curious of what leaders from other faith traditions and from which faith the leader expressed what,as shared in regards to their experiences with Christians.

love tammy

I have done more reading of Brian Mclaren’s works. If you are ever interested in having a private conversation please contact me at freetruth@sbcglobal.net
and anyone else who would want to have a conversation in private.

If there is a concern that I have misrepresented Brian I will refer the book, pages and paragraphs from more then one source of Brian’s works for you to check yourself.

I also have a paper I can e-mail by Jason Poling who has done an appraisal of Brian’s work. We have many points of agreement, however, our biggest point of disagreement: He hopes and tends to believe that Everything Must Change is not part of the inevitable outcome of Brian’s body of work in tone and teaching , I see Everything Must Change as part of the inevitable outcome of Brian’s body of work in tone and teaching.

love tammy

However , my interest in Brian Mclaren did not come about from any “cult” concerns as I have never heard any accusation of social abuses in the emerging movement and in no way in reading Mclaren could anyone stand on such an accusation, it would be ludicrous.As to his message I came to his books not knowing what he was teaching.(I have been on sabatical from the counter-cult/apologetics ministry.)I started reading him knowing that people I trust as mature christians really liked his work or were very concerned, but this is still not why i started what has become research. I have found that those who praise or are concerned both have shared his message with me minus a lot of context.( some of this does have to do with the way he writes and the amount of reading it may take for some to discern his message.) And i have found much of the same just reading blogs, book reviews and critics.I have found some balanced critics but sadly Brian uses the off the wall critics in his conference as examples of main stream christianity.( Then again, the way i started this blog some would say i am off the wall.)

Okay, so why did i finally decided i had to know what Brian was teaching. Because Willow Creek Community Church is my home church and he was coming for the student conference, his books have been suggested for reading and recently a Willow magazine quoted someone who swims in the emerging pool and made the gospel comes off unclear and then the article mentions the social gospel is not a bad word. Then, my kids are 14,16,18,20, and 20 year old niece also that i raised- the generation the emerging movement, I was told, would be the movement of the next generation. I am not into movements, no not even the seeker movement. I didn’t come to be a Christian the “coventionist” route. Basically, I prayed,” God I can’t trust what man says, they all disagree so I am going to read the bible and if it is really from you reveal it to me.” And then i read it through twice and then used a concordence to follow up on all the verses of certain words and then the new testament one more time.I became a christian in my bedroom while reading the bible after i got off my shift at UPS. I have never got so little sleep and had so much energy, I was 24.Then I chose Willow as my church because it was balanced. Well I have told you this much and you have told me about you so…. I am 39, I have a G.E.D., I worked my way right into ministry by sharing that Jesus really rose from the dead and loves you, and that happened to lead to countercult/apologetics ministry because of who God kept putting into my life.Christian who asked for my help to understand something they had been questioned about,family members hurting because of kids in abusive cults, or cultist trying to evangilize me. I am an uneducated layman(women), I am a chritian.period Presently, to make money I am owner/partner of a cleaning business and cleaning houses( Like Pam is, went to your site Pam.:-)

My focus right now is to lay out my concerns before my church. Really blogging is not a good media for being able to layout a clear position because you really only can say a little at a time and it is easy to misunderstand people or assume something into their thinking and then you either talk around each other or spend the little bit of time being patient to clarify.Anyway, that’s why I took the “put it out on the table” approach.

Jim, I am truly waiting on your responses.

And i have been married 20 1/2 years.

Have read generous orthodoxy, some of New Kind of Christian,Everything Must Change and re-read it again, The Secret Message of Jesus, many things Brian has on line,his online interviews, his open letter to Chuck Colsen,and then those who write on him pro and con.

About your sermon: Inclusively , all are welcomed but some will exclude themselves from entry through an essential gate. Less fundy sounding?

love tammy

Ok there is a bit of a problem for me to comment further on Brian. As I have not read enough of Brian’s Books or some of the other totally “hip” authors to comment on specifics (I can only share from my personal experience of being part of an Emergent Church for 6 years as it was filtered through my previous Church experiences and affiliations). So some of Brian’s books I own and have read. There are other Emergent authors that I started to read them but got bored and and never finished their books. I did very much enjoy a New Kind of Christian though.

I am a bit of strange one at the moment. I have spent the last year reading lots of Catholic and Orthodox books on Doctrine in my spare time. A little Orthodox book about the “herey” of the Doctrine of Sola Scriptora written by a Ex Protestant Church of the Nazarene Pastor now Priest I found the most interesting. I told my wife that I should convert so I could wear the really kewl vestments and get paid to preach. But I feel too strongly about the co equality of Men and Women in ministry to every consider that seriously. lol.

So I am sorry I can’t really say much more about Brian only that the Books that I have read I do find “Christian” in approach and doctrine. Because of these interactions I will order the newer ones and read them.

But in general terms, while I am totally up to speed that there are those in the Emergent World that deny the reality of the historic Evangelical hell (I think that is how we started to interact in this thread above anyway) and that it may sound like they are Universalists and/or Unitarians from time to time, I for one am not.

So for me personally to not at the very least affirm the Nicene Creed (not to just say you believe it to “get along” which might be what some emergent people might be doing????) but truly and actually believe it in your hearts of hearts is very problematic.

Again if this is what Jim H (the person behind this off the map thingy) means by “How did mentally assenting to a presecribed set of beliefs become the litmus test for faith” start then I can only say “Houston we have a problem here” and I would most humbly ask Jim H to please do not forget that there are those who have gone before us who at a certain point had to make a line with a Creed and say “this is what the Apostles taught us and taught their disciples and taught their disciples” and so on and so and so on and further that these are the books that are Holy Scriptures and these other books are not the Holy Scriptures etc etc. The same process more or less that gave us the Bible gave us the Nicene Creed. You cannot have one without the other!!!

Now of course I assume Jim H knows this and I am very thankfull for what he is doing here and his ministry of being “normal” (as some of us who emerged out of the Vineyard know exactly what it is to be “not normal”…..umm should I tell you stories about flashlights and checking teeth for gold fillings”??? etc. etc. etc. lol)

Jim H and Casper have written about the Bridge Christian Church in Portland, OR in their book “Jim and Casper go to Church”. The time of their visit, was before Nameless Church in Vancouver, WA of which I am the Pastor and Home PDX in Portland, OR of which Ken Loyd is the Pastor were planted by the Bridge. In other words I was there when they visited. Yet the Bridge is an Emergent/Emerging Church that is now 10 years old that most clearly has a Creed!!

So while some Emergent/Emerging Churches do not have a statement of faith I can very much assure that the Bridge Christian Church in Portland, OR does. Here is the link to it.

http://www.thebridge-pdx.org/about.php

Ironically if you were to read the Nameless Church website you would see that we do NOT post the same statement of faith as the Church of our most recent origin does, but we have chosen to concentrate more on general statements that we affirm both the Apostles and Nicene Creeds and the Evangelical Reformation Confessions, (we are doing this on purpose and for a purpose as we try to develop a Bridge between Catholic and Protestant understandings of the Scriptures) but I can truly say “yes and amen” to what the Bridge Christian Church in Portland, OR affirms in it’s Creedal Statements.

As the Emerging/Emergent Movement is not uniform then I think one of the problems the whole Cult Watcher groups might have is they don’t have a central person or group or a belief to try to “nail” them all down with. It is still emerging. But again I can only speak for me. So then if being Emergent means denying the Nicene Creed in whole or in part, then I am no longer Emergent nor can I promote or endorse anyone who does.

To answer what I preached on, it was John 10:1-10…..stressing that Jesus is both the Shepard and the Gate or Door. That Jesus himself is the one that lays down as the door to the Shepfold to protect his sheep. It was a very exclusive message. Jesus being the only Door. The only way. The way the truth and the life with no man coming to the Father but by him! Dang I am sounding so darn “fundy” at the moment lol.

David Knudtson
http://www.namelesschurch.org

So basically we agree on the goodnews and you hope I have misrepresented Brian , not because I would do so intentionally but because I have misunderstood him. I am assuming that, if i am correct that Brian is “peddling” another gospel, you understand why I would think this is an essential conversation and I would feel so strongly and in faithfulness give warning.Yes?

Jim, do you think I have a wrong understanding of Brian’s “essential message of Jesus”? If I do can you clarify what it is?

At the Deep Shift conference Brian was asked, “What is the gospel of Jesus?” His response was that he usually doesn’t like to answer this question but the way it is asked - “Repent and believe in the kingdom of God.”

I would not intentionally misrepresent anyone. Before I decided to shed light on what Brian is really saying( as I think there are more people importing their essential beliefs into Brian’s ‘christian’ message instead of really understanding what he is saying in it fullness or they are confused) I did a lot of work to make sure I understood his perspectives so as not to misrepresent him and narrow down that which is most essential, the gospel. Even after I took in his perspective the essential problems still remained. As of now, I believe Brian himself has the best intention at heart( however I could be wrong). For our fight is not against flesh and blood.

Before I ask my next question and we wait on Jim’s response I was curious for your answers and now I am curious about why you didn’t answer the Nicene Creed questions I posed, or you just didn’t get to them yet?

So what’s you sermon on this week?

love tammy

ps: I wrote this in a blog, it was all your your fault David:-)”The importance of using the Nicene Creed is because Brian and the movement at large have no Statement of Faith as a “framework”. Another words, there is no way of knowing at the onset of picking up one of Brian’s books how he “frames” or what he
“frames” as essential to Christian faith and his understanding of Scripture.When he accepts a creed however, he is saying that that Creed correctly represents what he believes Scripture to communicate. So christians pick up his book and start reading a “christian book” and just natuarlly assume somethings into the text of his writings. The nicene creed becomes the only thing outside the bible to challenge his interpretation of Scripture, so that the holding to a creed becomes an admission to how he interprets the Scriptures. Since he claims to hold to the Nicene Creed it is beliefs of which he agrees to be held to.”

I believe Jesus means what he says “I am the way the truth and the life and no man comes to the Father but by me”. Remember one of my foundational things in life is that “Jesus was who he said he was” and the words of Jesus are completely true!! Again I accept these things by faith but I do in fact accept them.

Therefore, while I believe that the Grace and Mercy of Jesus can reach people in all kinds of places and situations and while those in other belief systems may somehow make it into the “Kingdom of God” because God credits to them righteousness due to their faith (though they have mistaken beliefs) this is not clear revelation of the Scriptures. It is the exception that we arrive at because of the OT Saints. Now it is the clear revelation obviously for the OT Saints but it is just a hopeful belief for all those who do not know about Jesus or have not heard about Jesus. It is not the clear and main and plain teaching of Jesus or the Holy Scriptures.

I would therefore have to agree that if someone teaches as you have stated above that “all who follow in the ways of Jesus are of the Kingdom of God, Muslin, Atheist, Buddist, Christians.” that person is peddling another Gospel.

This is sounds more like Unitarianism than Christianity at least on the surface.

I do hope this is not an accurate representation of where Brian is coming from. I do hope it is just your understanding and that your understanding is somehow off. Perhaps Brian only means this in the same way I understand these things? As the exception for devout people who are wrong but sincere??

You know when I was a kid (circa 1971)and all those hippies got saved (and I think that included Jim H who runs this thing here) and they used to carry signs that said ONE WAY. I bet in their heart of hearts all these ex hippies still really believe that. That there is only ONE WAY. I do hope the fruit that remains are that we are “new kinds of Christians” but the keyword is “Christian”. So there is only ONE WAY. It is through Jesus.

And a big thanks to Jim for the fix it clock!

Okay , let’s leave to the side now my stand on Brian Mclaren. It’s been made clear what I think and I have no desire to continue to repeat it. And thank you David for getting us to the disagree part.

David said,”So while Brian might be agnostic about the exact nature of the future return of Christ and the final judgement, that is not the same as preaching another gospel. Last time I checked being agnostic about something meant to not be sure one way or another about something.”

Agree on agnostic. So if Brian says he isn’t sure one way or another about ” Jesus returning in glory” should he be telling people he holds to the nicene creed? My question to Brian wasn’t ” about the exact nature of the future return” and Brian understood that.This is why he said” I don’t know” to my next question ” When then will the dead be raised.” Brian new I had already read his responses to Andrew and I prefaced my question
in light of Brian’s Eutopia.

My contention on this blog was that Brian is actually preaching another gospel. The Nicene Creed points were your ( very welcome and nice) addition.

David said,”C. The final draft of the Nicene Creed is the dividing line between Christian and Non Christian belief systems…..therefore to deny the Nicene Creed is to deny the Christian Faith.” To give you the most of your argument I will say that to be agnostic at 1 point
of the Nicene creed is not to deny it. But its not the point of the Nicene creed to be excepted in its entirety? If your are agnostic at 1 point are you not agnostic to the Nicene creed?( Which at the least means the you do not up hold it) And, from your perspective above “to deny the Nicene Creed is to deny the Christian Faith.” how much of the Nicene Creed then does one not have to uphold to be considered to deny it?

David said:”When it comes to truth here is a propositional position that I work from:

1. All truth Comes from God

2. Not all truth is found in the Bible”

Here’s mine
1.The truth of God is only known through special revelation from God.
2.The truth found in general revelation will not oppose the truth of God.

David said,”A. Jesus was who he said he was and he came back to life again….the heart of the Good News!!”

Okay here is my central contention with Brian, the gospel. Now because of what you say in A. I am curious to how we disagree and then when we know we’ll be able to be talking about the same thing.

1.If someone is a calling their self a Christian and sounds and acts like a christian( and places their self in the category of prophet)but is preaching a different gospel would your say the term wolf in sheep’s clothing applies to them?
2.If someone asked you today what is the goodnews of Jesus would you say,” Repent and believe in the Kingdom of God,” or would you say,” The mystery has been revealed,Jesus died for our sins, was buried and rose from the dead.”
3.Do you believe that I have misrepresented Brian when I say he is preaching a false good news ( see posts above also): He believes the goodnews is ” Repent and believe in the Kingdom of God” and when he says this he is saying that it is about following Jesus example so that God’s Dream of a Eutopia here on earth may be realized.And all who follow in the ways of Jesus are of the Kingdom of God, Muslin, Atheist, Buddist, Christians.
4.Do you agree with Brian, as described in part 3. ,that this is the goodnews.

Here is the goodnews as I read scripture: the good news is centered on Jesus. When Jesus was here the kingdom was at hand and the will of the Father is that they believe in the Son, the Messiah, the forgiver of sins. Repent and believe the good news for the Kingdom is at hand.After Christ death the mystery is revealed,the goodnews is that Jesus died for our sins, was buried, and rose from the dead. The goodnews of the kingdom. Now the another element of the kingdom is not the goodnews but the entrustment of being part of the kingdom, service. It seems to me that we agree on the goodnews according to your A.point. So do we agree?

love tammy

So then if I understand what you have said you believe that Brian McClaren is a wolf in sheeps clothing? While everyone is entitled to their opinion I just don’t agree with you on that one.

I have made the point in the comments above that everyone should take a serious look at the ancient creeds and truly affirm then. So while Brian might be agnostic about the exact nature of the future return of Christ and the final judgement, that is not the same as preaching another gospel. Last time I checked being agnostic about something meant to not be sure one way or another about something.

I sort of stumbled across this website where a Episcopal Church Leader in 1914 deals with the issues as to why the creeds are important and he addresses these issues in terms of “Modernity” and I would suggest that his points are even more valid in a “Post Modern” world. Here is the link for those who like to read and think.

http://homepage.mac.com/rc.vervoorn/swete/ancient_creeds_modern_life.html

When it comes to truth here is a propositional position that I work from:

1. All truth Comes from God

2. Not all truth is found in the Bible

3. Those things which are found in the Bible are more or less true and any thing which may not be true is faithfully recorded.

(so then I could personally affirm the idea of the Bible being without error in the original manuscripts but as we don’t have the original manuscripts it is sort of a mute point)

4. Therefore when I interact with other claims of truth in the marketplace of ideas (which might come from God….see point number 1 above) then my goal is to let the revealed truth of the Bible trump any other supposed truth that I find.

Besides this basic approach then to truth I also hold 3 other foundational beliefs by “faith” in regards to Jesus, the Bible and the Creed.

A. Jesus was who he said he was and he came back to life again….the heart of the Good News!!

B. The Bible is God’s Word and it is the final authority when it comes to matters of spiritual truth when it is “rightly divided”.

(this is not to say that that I don’t read lots of other things that are not the Bible…. for instance last night I was reading the Epistle of Barnabas and it is most interesting but those who are my Fathers in the Faith long ago gave me the “knock list” of what is the Scriptures versus what is just interesting and helpfull versus the “real prescence” of Jesus that is found in the Holy Scriptures)

C. The final draft of the Nicene Creed is the dividing line between Christian and Non Christian belief systems…..therefore to deny the Nicene Creed is to deny the Christian Faith.

So then out of my approach to Truth and also my beliefs that I hold by “faith” about Jesus, the Bible and the Creed flows everything in my life. So then after 33 years of serving the Lord Jesus it is where I am as of today on these issues.